'Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out' replied by Bhagats @ Wed, 14 May 2008 10:58:57 +0800

Bhagats — Wed, 14 May 2008 10:58:57 +0800

In the start, things are slower in India but once maturity is reached, the pace increases dramatically. Some projects were very successfull. Especially when things cannot be purchased from abroad like the missiles.

Going ballistic: India looks to join elite missile club

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_looks_to_join_elite_missile_club/articleshow/3034062.cms

NEW DELHI: By 2010-2011, India hopes to gatecrash into a very exclusive club of countries, which have both ICBMs (intercontinental ballistic missiles) and SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles) as well as BMD (ballistic missile defence) capabilities.

Only the US and Russia strictly qualify for this club as of now, if all the three capabilities — ICBM, SLBM and BMD — are taken together, with countries like China not too far behind.

Top defence scientists, on the sidelines of the annual DRDO awards on Monday, told TOI they were quite confident India would have ICBMs and SLBMs, even though their strike ranges would be much lesser than American, Russian or Chinese missiles, as also a functional BMD system soon after the turn of this decade.

DRDO, of course, often promises much more than it delivers. But this time, it's ready to walk its talk, emboldened by the successful test of the 3,500-km range Agni-III missile last week.

Take ICBMs first. "We have already started the design work for Agni-V, with a range of over 5,000-km. It basically involves development of a third composite stage for the two-stage Agni-III," said Agni programme director Avinash Chander.

"We will be ready to test Agni-V by 2010," he added. There will not be an Agni-IV missile, with DRDO leapfrogging from intermediate range Agni-III to the almost ICBM-like Agni-V. "We have the capability to go for even longer ranges but it's for the political leadership to take a decision on such matters," said Chander.

As for the fledgling but "unique" two-tier BMD system, capable of tracking and destroying hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere, it will be tested again in July.

The BMD system has been tested two times till now. The first test was in November 2006 when an "exo-atmospheric" hypersonic interceptor missile successfully destroyed an incoming Prithvi missile at an altitude of around 40-50 km, demonstrating a capability akin to the Israeli Arrow-2 BMD system.

The second time, in December 2007, an "endo-atmospheric" interceptor successfully took on the "enemy" missile at a 15-km altitude, on the lines of the American Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) system. "Around July, we will test the exo-interceptor again. This time, we will test it at an 80-km altitude against a longer range 'enemy' missile. Then, in September-October, we will test the exo and endo together," DRDO chief controller for missiles V K Saraswat told TOI.

"BMD is very important since there are ballistic missiles all around us. If you are strong in your defence, an adversary will think twice before any misadventure," he added. The BMD system should be ready for deployment by 2011 or so, after several tests against a variety of missiles to ensure a kill probability of 99.8%, said Saraswat.

The third capability in the shape of the K-15 SLBM, which has been tested only from submersible pontoon launchers so far, should also be ready by that time to be integrated into the indigenous nuclear-powered submarines being built under the secretive ATV (advanced technology vessel) programme.

The initial range of K-15 will, however, be limited to 750-km, far less than the over 5,000-km range SLBMs brandished by the 'Big-5' countries. Nevertheless, it will mark the completion of India's "nuclear triad", which so far is limited to the Agni missiles and fighters like Mirage-2000s jury-rigged to carry nuclear weapons.

Indian defence planners have long bemoaned the absence of nuclear-powered submarines, armed with nuclear-tipped missiles, since they are considered the most reliable, survivable and deadly nuclear weapons platforms.

'Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out' replied by Bhagats @ Wed, 14 May 2008 10:52:51 +0800

Bhagats — Wed, 14 May 2008 10:52:51 +0800

And the planes will crash, just like the recent crash of Hawk aircraft. Substandard parts were used and sold. Import is costly. Subject to sanctions, restrictions, inferior products etc. There is no way out other than indigenisation for India.

An Army under siege

http://frontierindia.net/an-army-under-siege

As time has gone by, the quality of the leadership has deteriorated. It has become a 1 million plus army and it does not has the culture to make its own weapons and fight. The kargil War showed the will of the young Indian soldiers to fight and win a war, the war has exposed to the paralysis of the Indian Army (IA) leadership. The Army General had to be criticised to come back from his arms shopping trip. Estimated 700,000 Indian Army personnel deployed in mountainous Kashmir and they did not have high altitude clothing.

Indian Army leadership has taken up complaining about anything and anything around it when it comes to indigenisation of critical arms and equipment. These equipment happens to be high value and puts considerable strain on foreign exchange. This equipments also represent lucrative arms market where abnormal influences exist.

The successive weak governments which came after the death of Indira Gandhi, till the dynamic leadership of PV Narasimha Rao, had neglected the Indian Defence forces and it has taken the toll on the equipment needs of Armed forces in general. The Cinderella sister, the Indian Navy (IN), the best of the what Indian Armed forces has, took this opportunity to develop Indian designs and build Indian warship with as much indigenous content possible. Then came the Soviet Union collapse and we saw IN scrambling to build indigenous and ingenious capacities to keep their Soviet ship content afloat. In fact the IN design house was so ambitious that it wanted to build an aircraft carrier, but, not backed up by the weak governments.

On the contrary, the IA made a mess of the indigenous projects. Indian Army has a huge engineering manpower which did no innovation and behave like glorified mechanics. Today, when IN flaunts its homegrown ships, IA likes to parade its imported weaponry to the world around.

The way forward

There is no point flogging the dead horse, but, its very necessary to understand what is happening now. Things have not improved yet with the army. It still looks around for imported means. The army has made a mess of itself when it comes to indigenous equipment. Take the case of Arjun Tank. The Army is the one which has issued its specs, then changed it often when it comes near deployment, then tested it till it develops mistakes. The Arjun Tank has exceeded its performance,but, the Army has not improved its act. Last we heard is that there was a possibility of sabotage during he Ary’s internal trials. Since then the Ministry of Defence has made the Director General Mechanised Forces responsible for overseeing the induction.

Another example is Akash and Trishul projects. It is often cited that even the Navy has rejected Trishul SAM. This is an invalid criticism; the naval version of the Trishul SAM is totally different from the Army and the Air force version. Akash has been demonstrated to perfection to the Indian Air Force (IAF), Trishul has been in limited induction by IAF for familiarisation. But, Army refuses to buy it. Here too the Ministry of Defence has taken a decision to keep the medium range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) with Israel on hold, trying to force the Army to accept the Akash Missile at least.

Then the Eurocopter helicopter deal where the Army was testing a model which it was not going to get. Fortunately the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited stepped in a proved that upgraded Cheetas and Chetaks do a much better job than the imported option. This also brings in the question mark on the Indian Army’s standards of testing.

In the first place the Director General Mechanised Forces and Director General Military operations of the Indian Army are responsible for equipment decision. This is where the buck stops. The government should start seriously auditing these positions for understanding what went wrong with indigenisation programs and effects of the import lobby. Indian Army should create a new position called Director General for indigenisation of equipment, if it already dosen’t exist.

It is normally end-user who must have the final say on the suitability of the equipment for the use, but, it is necessary to audit the end-user for their judgment. It has become very necessary to involve third party evaluators for the Army purchases considering the past examples.

'Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out' replied by Shotgun @ Wed, 14 May 2008 00:08:37 +0800

Shotgun — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:08:37 +0800

I have no idea why they are so hell-bent on the Tejas. Scrap them and up the number of MRCAs.

'Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out' replied by Atobe @ Sun, 11 May 2008 08:24:14 +0800

Atobe — Sun, 11 May 2008 08:24:14 +0800

With bureaucratic mentality of the Indian Civil Servants, and the over-bloated self-importance of their position, it is not surprising that there should be a constant debate and politicking to impose personal whims and design on these national defence equipment projects.

If anyone has any dealings with the Indian Government and its officials, one will understand the length of time taken for India to build its indegeneously designed and manufactured main battle tank for more then 15 years since its conception stage.

The Indian designed aircraft is already out-of-date after having been stuck in the same quagmire of bureaucratic politiking and power plays that are made worst with a change of political parties that formed the Indian governments over the last 20 years.

This is the consequence when Government take on the role of industrial management and manufacturing - as each alternative political parties have their own agenda.

Compared to countries such as Brazil, EU countries, Israel, Japan, South Korea, UK and the USA, it is Private Enterprise that take the initiative and leadership role in privately funding R&D on new technologies - sometimes with Government financial participation and without direct managerial controls - and also the manufacturing of the equipment.

'Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out' replied by 38Ž @ Sat, 10 May 2008 23:44:34 +0800

38Ž — Sat, 10 May 2008 23:44:34 +0800

More trouble for the Indian national defense industries' "Indigenous" projects.

Another prolonged project after 23 years development, The IAF's LCA- Tejas fighter jet, now faces overweigh problem and GE404 is blamed for underpower, "not flat rated" etc, with the indigenous "Karevi" engine program still searching for a foreign co-development partner. Any change of the new powerplant means the LCA need to be modified again, which in turn, will request more flight test and more delay even after 23 years:

http://www.hindu.com/2008/05/09/stories/2008050961481300.htm

Eurojet Turbo pitches for its engine for Tejas

Ravi Sharma

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IAF had said Tejas with 85 kN GE engine cannot meet air staff needs

Eurojet gives 90 kN thrust though IAF wants a 100 kN engine

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BANGALORE: A nine-member delegation from Eurojet Turbo, leading European military aero-engine consortium, on Wednesday concluded a three-day “workshop” for the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), on the feasibility of their engine being used to power the underpowered Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).

The workshop could be a precursor to the ADA — designers of the LCA — deciding on a new engine for the Tejas.

The workshop comes in the wake of an Air Force communication to the Ministry of Defence that the Tejas, with its present engine — the General Electric manufactured GE F404 IN20 — cannot meet air staff requirements. The Air Force’s reasons that the thrust (with afterburner) generated by the GE F404 IN20 — 85 kilo Newtons (kN) — is adequate for an aircraft of eight tonnes, but with the Tejas being overweight by nearly two tonnes it requires a much more powerful engine. The Air Force wants an engine that is capable of delivering a thrust of 100 kN.

Eurojet, which had made available sophisticated data on the EJ200 to the ADA, has offered to transfer all technology — including the key core technology — on the engine to India. The engine will eventually be manufactured in India. It also claims that the EJ200 meets the Tejas’ technical requirements and very little modifications will be needed to house its engine. Though Eurojet is confident that its engine will be chosen by the ADA, it will have to beat the challenge from GE, which had made a preliminary presentation on the GE414.

Sources in the ADA said that while the EJ200, with a thrust of 90 kN, brings in the latest technology in combat aircraft engines and is lighter and smaller, the heavier GE414 is capable of producing more thrust (97.5 kN). But Eurojet officials said the EJ200, which is the only five-stage compression engine in the world today, has the potential to meet the Air Force’s requirement of 100 kN.

The workshop was also an indication that the ADA has accepted the Air Force’s contention that the Tejas in its present configuration is unacceptable.

I just wonder how come a delta wing "world lightest fighter", a design used to be popular in 1970s need a futuristic Eurojet 230/270 to satisfy the T/W requirement.

'Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out' replied by zenden9 @ Sat, 10 May 2008 16:52:39 +0800

zenden9 — Sat, 10 May 2008 16:52:39 +0800

New Delhi , April 24, 2008

First Published: 19:44 IST(24/4/2008)

Last Updated: 20:27 IST(24/4/2008)

The Defence Ministry on Thursday said a conspiracy could be in play to “sabotage” the main battle tank (MBT) Arjun project, even as Indian Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor visited the production unit to inspect the tanks after they failed the just-concluded winter trials.

“The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined,” Minister of State for Defence (Production) Rao Inderjit Singh told reporters in New Delhi.

“The engines fitted in the tanks were German and were performing well for the past 15 years. I wonder what has happened to them overnight,” Singh said, talking about the reported failures of the tank.

Gen. Kapoor, meanwhile, visited the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF) in Tamil Nadu for a first-hand look at the tank on the shop-floor.

"Gen. Kapoor along with Defence Secretary (Production) Pradeep Kumar went to the HVF in Avadi (Tamil Nadu) to inspect the tanks," said an army source.

The army had told a key parliamentary panel earlier this month that the Arjun tank, which has been in development for nearly 36 years, failed to deliver at the just-concluded winter trials. The army said after the winter trials that a lot of improvements had to be carried out before it was satisfied.

Kapoor and his predecessor JJ Singh have on separate occasions expressed their unhappiness with the tank.

"What we have today is a mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality," Kapoor said in November.

JJ Singh had spoken in much the same vein during a major Indian Army exercise in the deserts of Rajasthan in April-May 2007.

However, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has defended the Arjun tank.

"Arjun is a proven tank. The defects are pertaining to quality control and production of the tank which can always be fine tuned," a senior DRDO official said.

Fourteen Arjun tanks were handed over to the Indian Army for user trials last year but were returned to the manufacturer - the Combat Vehicles Development Establishment - with a list of defects.

These included a deficient fire control system, inaccuracy of its guns, low speeds in tactical areas - principally the desert - and the tank's inability to operate in temperatures over 50 degrees Celsius.

The army had laid down its qualitative requirement (QR) for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

Arjun was originally meant to be a 40-tonne tank with a 105 mm gun. It has now grown to a 50-tonne tank with a 120 mm gun.

The tank was meant to supplement and eventually replace the Soviet-era T-72 MBT that was first inducted in the early 1980s.

However, delays in the Arjun project, and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

Of these, 186 were assembled from kits at the HVF at Avadi. An agreement was also signed for the licensed production of another 1,000 T-90s.

With the development of the Arjun delayed further, India last year signed a fresh contract with Russia to buy another 330 T-90s.

http://hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=02840629-77bf-4f65-a5e3-b4ccde57fe1a&MatchID1=9&TeamID1=3&TeamID2=8&MatchType1=5&SeriesID1=1&PrimaryID=9&Headline=%27A+conspiracy+to+sabotage+MBT+in+play%27

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Project failed and they claim other people sabotage them? LOL!!

Recent Posts in ''Possibility of sabotaging Arjun tanks cannot be ruled out'' | sgForums.com